The Last Days of CHAOS! An Interview with Brian Pulido

By Buddy Scalera

The dog days of summer were winding down as the announcement started spreading all over the Internet: Chaos! Comics was going out of business.

It was a shocking revelation. Under Brian Pulido, Chaos! had beaten the odds and created a successful comic book publishing empire. Like the front man of a heavy metal band, Pulido turned the amplifiers all the way up to “11.” Even if someone wasn’t a fan of in-your-face-rock-n-roll-horror-comics, they couldn’t help notice Chaos!

Pulido was a master marketer who spun his creations into every possible medium and merchandise. He blazed new trails by publishing insanely expensive and rare covers to many of his comics. When other companies produced variant covers, Brian was trumped them all by doing a LEATHER variant cover. In a few short years, Pulido became one of the most successful independent comic book publishers in history.

But the downturn in the comic book industry took a toll on Chaos! In late August, 2002, Pulido announced he was filing for Chapter 7, which is a business classification for how he was going to close the Chaos! business. It was disturbing to see a once-successful company fall victim to the soured economy.

But nothing was more disturbing than the outpouring of rage on message boards across the Net. The fans were ripping Pulido’s reputation to shreds. Many anonymous posters filled the boards with misinformation. My response was in the form of a column titled “ The Lynching of Brian Pulido.”

Pulido saw the column, and he and I began to email. We discussed doing a follow up interview once the dust had settled. We agreed to some basic terms. The interview would be done over email, none of it would be edited, and Brian would answer every question. Brian and I had a common goal: To get Brian’s perspective on the last days of Chaos! comics. Unfiltered.

I sent Brian a huge list of challenging questions. It took some time to complete the lengthy interview, but Brian was true to his word. He answered every question head on. It’s rare for a journalist to be genuinely impressed by someone he is interviewing via email. The answers often come across as planned and canned. Not this time. These answers seem to be from the heart.

As you read this, try to put yourself in Brian Pulido’s shoes. Forget that this is just another comic book company. Imagine instead that you or someone close to you is Brian Pulido. Try to picture what it’s like to be the person answering these questions.

Only then will you truly understand The Last Days of Chaos.



Buddy Scalera: First off? How have you been doing? I imagine this has been a turbulent few months for you.

Brian Pulido: I am doing pretty well. Our family had a nice holiday season and I am finally realizing that my future is open. I can do anything I want to. Right after the filing, I was doing okay, probably because I was in machine mode just carrying out the plan. But from the beginning of October to mid-November, I was terribly, terribly sad and haunted by the events that lead to the Chaos1 bankruptcy.

It wasn’t that I lost the company and all the characters. I felt sad and guilty about all the creditors that Chaos! left and how it hurt them. I felt personally responsible and I was in a pretty dark place about it. If you knew me as a person personally, you would understand that declaring bankruptcy was a complete nightmare. It was the thing I least wanted to do because I knew the impact it would have on others that counted on me.

BS: What made it turn around for you?

BP: I simply had to accept responsibility for the bankruptcy, the good and the bad of it. And to do that, meant I had to accept all of it.

The Basic Facts

BS: In order for people to get the whole picture, let's lay out the basic facts first. Then we can go into some of the other relevant details. According to an announcement in August, Chaos! Comics was closed for business. What exactly did that mean?

BP: Chaos! Comics, Inc filed for chapter 7 bankruptcy, meaning it was no longer a viable business and its assets would be liquidated for the benefit of the creditors.

BS: Can you tell me the difference between Chapter 7 and Chapter 11? And why you made the decision to file for Chapter 7?

BP: Chapter 7 is filing to liquidate businesses assets. Chapter 11 is a filing for re-organization.

I chose Chapter 7 option because it was the most realistic and responsible option. Statistically 85% of chapter 11 re-organizations fail. They are also costly -- upwards of $25K, which we didn’t have. For the year prior to filing, we were taking actions consistent with re-organizing the company: We were looking for outside investors and had put the company up for sale, we were re-negotiating old debt. During that time, our business broker agent put Chaos! in front of 150 companies who all passed. Since we had done re-organizing work, and because our sales projections for the next year had our sales falling off another 30%, we filed chapter 7 knowing the inventory, equipment and intellectual property would be auctioned off for the benefit of the creditors.

There were other options open to the company that I wouldn’t consider. One was to simply walk away and let the corporation be attacked by lawsuits, which we would not have contested. Creditors would have won their cases, but with no assets the corporation would be unable to pay. As catastrophic as it was, I wanted closure for everyone and I wanted all creditors to at least have a chance to get some money.

BS: I can't imagine this was an easy decision. What were some of the things you took into consideration when you were weighing your options?

BP: First we considered the actions we took in the year proceeding. When we hired the business broker this was a complicated process. They spent three months accessing the value of the company. In March 2001, the accessed Chaos! to be worth $1.5 million dollars. One year later after our sharp sales decline, and after offering the company to 150 other companies in publishing and entertainment, they came back with a value of $200K. It was a real blow.

Additionally, our sales were in decline since November 2001. I’ve been criticized for this repeatedly. People have said, if you knew sales were in decline, why didn’t you do something sooner? Here is the thing. Through the years of publishing we had sales declines on and off, most notably during winter months of January and February. The sales decline itself of November and December were not a cause for real panic. We had been there before and recovered in months where were collected licensing money or where we had sales peaks due to new product launches, and so on.

One of our strengths was our ability to sell in non-traditional markets like Hot Topic, Spenser’s and record stores. Starting in November 2001, those outlets started slowly drying up for us and we were then saddled with a high percentage of returns, which we never had before.

The total effect of the declining sales of November 2002 - July 2002 was unprecedented for us. Our year to date sales in the year 2002 were $400K LESS than 2001. We simply were not prepared for that.

We fought hard. We constantly worked on cutting costs. We eliminated jobs, we reduced salaries, we reduced our utility bills, we looked for most cost efficient printing solutions, but we could not catch up.

We got our initial sales numbers for July 2002 and they were 25% below an already-low sales projection. Instead of throwing in the towel, we worked hard on bringing the sales up (like we did each month). We brought in another 10% in sales. To give you an idea of what I mean, our sales for Static X #1 (with a retail price of $5.95) were 11K and we projected 18K. It was simply too much. In effect, we ground to a halt.

When we looked at sales projections for the balance of the year based on the trends were seeing, we would not have had one profitable book. For better or worse, we really did count on our direct market sales to remain viable.

BS: What were some of the steps you took to prevent closing Chaos!

BP: I’ve outlined a lot of the actions in answer above. We relentlessly marketed our business to other companies to buy it. I would have used the proceeds to get square with everybody. We had potential buyers up to and past the bankruptcy filing.

BS: Approximately, how many full-time, part-time, and freelance people did you have working for you? Where did that leave the Chaos! employees and other resources?

BP: We had about ten full time employees and fifteen to twenty five freelancers (depending on the projects in play). The employees were fully paid and many of the freelancers were not.

There has been some discussion that we as a company focused on not paying freelancers and this is not true. In the last few months, our debts accumulated from all areas from paying the rent to keeping the electricity on. We were hit on all sides.

The Properties

BS: After you closed Chaos! one of your most valuable properties was purchased by CrossGen. It would seem that you could have changed Lady Death at any time. Were you required to change Lady Death in any way by CrossGen?

BP: I believe "required" is a strong word for it. I agreed with Mark to make adjustments to the setting of the story, look of the character, and so on. I knew going in that the initial outline would build upon my basic concept and that others would be helping me refining it. The others involved were Barbara Kesel, Chuck Dixon, Ron Marz, Tony Bedard and Gina Villa. They are a great team to work with.

BS: What sort of restrictions does CrossGen place on your universe?

BP: Again, restriction is a strong word. Instead, I suggest, "rules of the game". I agreed not to put down or defame any character based on gender, race or religion. I agreed to no overtly sexual scenes. I agreed to keep most violence off-panel. I welcomed the chance to so this. I’ve written about 90 comics and co-written another 125 all without an editor. This is a chance for me to develop further and I took it.

BS: What happens to your inventory?

BP: Chaos! Comics equipment and inventory was auctioned off in October 2002.

BS: What happens to your other assets, including equipment, investments, and holdings?

BP: When you say "your" I take that to mean Chaos! Comics and not me personally. In that case, it is the same as above.

BS: What other companies (comics or otherwise) approached you about purchasing your properties?

BP: We approached over 150 companies in their publishing and entertainment fields and I’d prefer not to name names.

BS: What's the status of your other properties, including the cookbook?

BP: My wife’s cookbook, Indonesian Cuisine was produced through another company, not Chaos! Comics. It was a successful venture that sold out its 20K print run. My other business ventures that are outside of the comic book industry are running smoothly.

The Business

BS: It's no secret that the sales of comic books have been in decline for quite some time. What was your best year as a publisher? What stands out about this year?

BP: 1995. I had five employees and our sales were over six million dollars. We sold $980K in LD merchandise in August 1995 alone.

BS: Looking back, can you see a turning point when things went from good to bad?

BP: There was a combination of events. First there was the consolidation of distributors. At that same time, I grew Chaos! when I didn’t need to. We enlarged our staff, our facilities, and we invested in technology that quickly grew outdated. As an owner, I did not know how to manage growth. It was a costly lesson.

BS: What were your highest sales and how do they compare to the sales when you filed for Chapter 7?

BP: Our highest sales were in 1995-1997. Our sales were under two million [dollars] for the year 2002 when we filed for chapter 7. People may read this and think two million [dollars] in sales was good. It wasn’t because it was costing us 2.4 million [dollars] to earn the two million [dollars] in sales. Add to that, the rising manufacturing costs over the last few years and general operating costs, coupled with a debt service and made it all losing proposition.

BS: A few years back, money flowed freely. What were some of the things that Chaos! did when there was a lot of cash flow?

BP: Like all other companies, we were able to be less efficient. I believe our biggest squandering of money was our excessive touring. We would fly around all our key creators, not first class mind you, but we would fly four to six creators, plus a tour manager and assistant to ten to twelve stops a year, plus the costs associated with the booth (shipping, set up). The intention was to market and promote the company, but it was costly. In later years, we did it much more effectively.

BS: Hindsight is 20/20. What expenditures can you look back on and say, "I probably shouldn't have spent money on that"?

BP: Again, touring.

Also, we went to a ten thousand [square] foot facility in ‘96 or ‘97 and the costs were prohibitive. We had nineteen employees in 1997, and we didn’t need half of them. It was our least efficient year.

BS: Conversely, what expenditures can you say, "This was a good investment"?

BP: In the last three years of operation, we became very efficient. I enrolled myself in an on-going business development course and used what I learned to document and improve the company’s systems. So I’d say education was a good investment.

We diversified into direct to consumer marketing with a mail order service that generated 10-15% of our sales revenue. That was a good investment.

BS: If you could go back, what would you do differently?

BP: I will go through a couple of scenarios.

In scenario A, I never bring in other writers and produce only the books that I personally can produce. In that case, I would need fewer employees, less space and less outside talent. We would run lean and mean.

In scenario B, in the beginning of the company, I would have hired expert management, much more savvy than myself. Instead, I brought people on based on family ties and friendship. That didn’t work. I stopped doing that in about 1998.

In scenario C, I would be a financial expert from the start of the company. I would know how to pick the right financial people to get the job done honestly and efficiently. Unfortunately, I hired a financial officer who did not communicate all the financial details of the company and who was incapable of managing the company’s growth. Though he produced financial reports, the reports withheld key details. I would be able to see what is missing now, but not then.

In scenario D, I would have sold the company in 1996, at the height of the market. I would have remained in place to run it, but would have been aligned with a powerful "parent" to weather the tough times like now.

In scenario E, I would do all the above.

BS: Sometimes when a business owner closes shop, they report a range of feelings -- dread, fear, depression, and even relief. What type of feelings did you experience?

BP: In the weeks prior and for the first month afterward, I was numb and simply executing the plan. I am a survivor and that’s how I handle things. After that, I started feeling all those things you mentioned. When the on-line attacks and lies from Chaos! creditors started surfacing, I got really sad.

I was sad because people were casting me as a guy who had this all planned out, that Chaos! was my personal money machine and I was purposely out to screw people. People who really know me know that is not the truth. One person claimed on line that I took money from Chaos! in February 2002 and used it to pay off my home. That didn’t happen. I assure you all, I’m still paying my mortgage for another twenty-eight or so years.

When other on-line bottom feeders who didn’t even have any investment in this event started attacking me personally, I had to laugh. I mean, why would someone with no personal involvement spend the time to voice their opinion on the matter. I just thought those people were pathetic. Go get your own life. At the same time, they are indicative of how people in this industry react. There isn’t a team atmosphere where people want other people to win for the industry’s sake. Instead, there’s petty division where people relish the failure of others. They actually seem to derive joy from it. That’s twisted in my view. I truly feel sorry for those people.

I was sad to close Chaos! because it was a like a family for many of us. It was the only company that allowed people who like loud, lewd stuff to express themselves. I know people counted on me and I know I let them down.

But I did not plan it that way. I did not plan to lose $400K in sales in eight months. I didn’t plan for all our titles to wither on the vine at the same time.

Now I do feel relief. The last eight months of managing Chaos! was the most grueling, thankless time of my life. I wouldn’t wish on my worst enemy.

BS: What was it like for you the day after you signed the papers?

BP: Tough day. Adam Goldfine and myself started calling all Chaos! creditors so they could hear about the closure from us directly. There were some creditors we only communicated with via e-mail so we "spoke" to them that way. We had been doing business with many of these companies for up to nine years. Many, many of them were very gracious. They looked at the long-term relationship, at what Chaos! did for them over the years and accepted what I told them. Our sales representative at Quebecor printing was amazing. He simply said, "we had a great run, didn’t we?" and he said that if I ever was in Montreal to be sure I called so we could grab a beer.

Creators like David Michael Beck and Jesse McCann were very gracious. Both viewed Chaos! as the place that gave them their first break and they were sad to see it go, but supportive.

Others were not so supportive. Other people were downright hostile and you know that is their right. I accept that people will be very angry with this, perhaps forever. What I don’t accept is that the angry creditors lie about me to serve their agenda or use this as an opportunity to market themselves or to "get back" at me.

Trust me, if you all want to "get back" at me, its like double dipping. I already lost my business, everything I created, my credibility as an honorable guy, what else is there to take?

The Freelancers

BS: One of your most vocal critics is Dave Campiti. Can you explain who Dave is and what services he has provided?

BP: Dave Campiti was an artist’s agent. We used artists he represented to pencil or ink out books.

BS: Dave said in a Newsarama interview that Chaos! owed him money. Do you owe Dave, Glasshouse Graphics, or his artists any money? If so, how much?

BP: Chaos! owed Dave’s company about $44K.

BS: You'll be doing the new Lady Death with Ivan Reis. Isn't he one of Dave's studio artists?

BP: He was. I don’t believe he is now.

BS: Can you give your opinion on some of the other rumors that have been floating around?

BP: If you can be specific about each rumor I can comment on them.

BS: I've heard claims that you have not returned original art to the freelancers. What's your response?

BP: We returned all art in house to freelancers. I saw it happen. The art we did have at the end (Ryan Odagawa art from V8 and art from Purgatori: Love Bites #1) we could not return because we could not locate the artists. The bankruptcy lawyer may have it now. For any other artwork inquiry, you have to be specific.

BS: What's your feeling about Dave and other freelancers going public with the details of your business dealings?

BP: The freelancers who got burned in this ordeal were pissed off. When they had a hostile reaction, they tended to re-invent circumstances to fit into the
"Brian Pulido and/or Chaos! was a really bad person/organization who screwed me" group. Believe them if you will, but largely we were very, very up front that we were having a shitty year.

I never read more than a few paragraphs of Dave’s rant on Newsarama, but from what I did read I recommend that Dave really, really needs to seek out a mental health professional. I’m not saying this for a laugh. Having worked with him over the years, I always though he needed help, but I didn’t say anything. Now I am. I’ve talked with other publishers since he posted his remarks and they agreed. Dave needs help.

Much of what Dave asserted was an outright lie or a complicated retelling of circumstances to fit his version of reality. Many of the conversations he ascribes to me, he in fact had with Adam Goldfine. Adam was our Chief Financial officer and as such discussed finance with Dave. I did not regularly discuss finance with Dave.

The Online Response

BS: There was a lot of response over the Chapter 7 announcement. Heck, there's a lot of response over everything these days, now that we have such an active Internet. Were you prepared for the negative backlash against you?

BP: No. I wasn’t prepared for it.

BS: What's your response when someone says "Brian took the money and ran" regarding your deal with CrossGen?

BP: I didn’t take any money. The low sum of money generated from the sale of Lady Death went to pay creditors.

And trust me, I didn’t run. I’ve faced this whole thing head on. I could have legally simply walked away from Chaos! let everyone sue Chaos!, get their judgment and not paid. Instead I sacrificed what I created to be sold to help creditors. Adam Goldfine and myself worked with the bankruptcy lawyer to keep two motion picture deals -- Jade and Bad Kitty -- in place to benefit creditors. I have worked out an arrangement with CrossGen that unpaid invoices for Lady Death creators will be paid out of deals in place prior to the sale of Lady Death to CrossGen. That includes the animated Lady Death movie.

BS: Some people have responded by saying, "Good, we're better off without Chaos!" What's your response to that?

BP: I could not care less.

BS: What did Chaos! bring to this industry?

BP: We brought fun, rock ‘n roll and outrageousness. We brought in new readers who would not have read comics if not for Chaos! We made a lot of people a lot of money for years and years. I proved to independent publishers that the impossible can be done. I proved that you could run a non-mainstream company, in a super hero dominated culture and win. The next generation of outlaw publishers can learn from that.

The Fans

BS: I remember some pretty fun parties. In fact, you even invited the fans, right? Not to get too far off track, but I want to ask you about Chaos! fans. Your fans are pretty hardcore. What was their response to the announcement?

BP: Deep sadness. Many of the fans only bought Chaos! books. They had no other reason to buy other comics. Chaos! spoke to them in a way that other companies could not. I have an entire binder of letters and e-mails from fans who were very, very sad.

BS: What's the initial fan response to the new Lady Death?

BP: I just learned that Lady Death #1 from CrossGen is their #1 book of the month. So I’d say we have people curious.

BS: Can you recreate the fan community from Chaos! over at CrossGen?

BP: I believe it is possible. If in essence, fans gravitated to Chaos! because of my creations, my stories, my choice of artists, and my way of making the whole thing a lifestyle that brings people together, then it is very possible.

[EDITOR’S NOTE: Brian’s fans often congregate at the http://www.cyberfiends.net/ website.]

Family And Friends

BS: In what ways was Chaos! more than just a business to you?

BP: Chaos! was a tribe of like-minded people who were anti-authoritative, anti-mainstream. We were not just a comic book company; we were a way of life. If you were part of it, you’d understand what I’m saying. If you weren’t you just would not get it.

BS: How did the Chapter 7 filing affect you as a person?

BP: Initially, the whole thing was shattering, but as of this writing (January 14th, 2003) I’d say I’ve learned a lot of lessons and I am back to being my predominately optimistic self. I’m ready for big, new challenges. I’m ready to move on.

BS: How did it affect the way you look at the world?

BP: I’m less interested in management at this time, but other than that it hasn’t that changed the way I look at the world much. If people expect to see a sad sack, burnt out husk of a man, they will be disappointed.

BS: How did it affect your interpersonal relationships with the Chaos! employees?

BP: It depends on the person. Several former employees and I are in touch on a weekly basis. Some not at all. It was tough on everyone.

BS: Chaos! experienced a jolting change with the untimely death of Steven Hughes. What was your relationship with Steven, and what did his passing mean to you? How did that experience change you?

BP: When Steven and I began creating together in 1990, it was something special. We were really two parts of a whole person. It was magical. That is the part I like to remember. I believe Steven saw the turn in the road when I expanded the company. He was opposed to it, but I never really got what he said. He was right, I believe.

When he died, I was stunned. I really didn’t expect it. At the same time, the day to day demands of Chaos! forced me to keep going. His death really took some of the wind out of my sails.

I fantasized about stopping Chaos! in December 1999 right after the Armageddon storyline. That would have been great. But the company had to go on.

If I was the heart of Chaos! Steven was the soul. When he passed, the soul had gone. It became more of a job than a mission for me. Before that, it was always a mission.

BS: Often we find out who your true friends are during times of stress. What did you learn about your "true friends"?

BP: Largely, people showed a lot of grace in the face of a really crummy situation. The people I expected to stand by me did. They showed a lot of courage and bravery, especially Adam Goldfine, Francisca Pulido, Christine Puerschner and Mark Alessi. I’m eternally grateful to them.

There were some people who were close to me and Chaos! who betrayed the company as soon as they got their last check. They believed stuff without ever giving me the benefit of asking me directly about the situation. So when I was down, they kicked me in the gut. In retrospect, I’m not too surprised. But hey, that’s how it goes. Life is one big lesson, huh?

BS: Who are the people who have stood by you and what do they mean to you?

BP: Okay in no particular order, they are: Francisca Pulido, Adam Goldfine, Christine Puerschner, Eric Casper, Mark Alessi, Joe Quesada, Ivan Reis, Joe Prado, Patrick Jodoin, Jim Mclaughlin, Fred Pierce, Dave Balance, David Michael Beck, Jap Man, Jesse McCann, John Ostrander, Dan Jolley, Team Red Star, Hurricane Entertainment (Jan), comic Images, Josh Dysart, Tone Rodriguez, Romano Molenar, Jimmy Palmiotti, Matt Hawkins, Steven Grant, Chris Golden, Marc Sylvestri, Bridgette Sylvestri, Nick Barrucci, Eric Casper, Andrew Plattner, Farley, Jeff and Mark Weiss, Nancy Olgilvie, Kim Butler, Gale Ann Hurd, Mark L. Wolper, Richard Saito, William Christensen, Charles at CBLDF, Hart Fisher, A.J. Garcia, James Collins, Jeff Conner, Mike Flippin, Mike Malvie, Mike Banks, Bill and Sharon Liebowitz, Danny Miki, Bill Jay, Ian Feller, Tony Panaccio, Chris Oarr, Gina Villa, Michelle Pugiliese, Bart Sears, Roland Paris, Butch Guice, Barbara Kesel, Chuck Dixon, Ron Marz, Jennifer Hernandez, John Smith, Jim Hanley, Cheryl Teramotto, Redmond, Dan Wickline, Robert Hall, Kenneth Rhodes, Buddy Scalera, CBG, Chris Arajo, Edward J. Wood, Joel Thomas, Rumulo Soares, CJ Whitney, Joey Moore, Jim Jokishch, Scott Wherle, Cray, I Machine, Billy Tucci, Mike Shiley, Scott Lewis, Andrew Lehman, Ken Lashley, Ted Kane, Michelle White, Kevin Southwell, Mandy, Judy Evers, Donovan, Turtle, Jeff Hensen, Rhett Funk, Luke & Jeff Fisher, my family (Susan Bruno) and my extended family (Mom V, Marja van de Weerdt, Felix Avecio). All these people and others I am probably forgetting mean the world to me.

Going Forward With Brian

BS: What's next for you?

BP: In the world of comics I have the Lady Death series from CrossGen. Mark Alessi invited me to create a second book, which I plan to take him up on. I am developing a new group of supernatural comic books for another publisher (to be named soon).

Next, I plan to write and direct feature films. To that end, I am going back to college and taking film classes to practice making movies. This year, I will make several short films and enter them into film festivals. I’ve started work on feature script that I plan to direct in the next year.

BS: How would you like this industry to remember you?

BP: Right now I don’t believe it is possible for the industry to remember me how I’d like to be remembered. I prided myself on being a straightforward, straight talking guy who does what he says he’ll do. That’s how I’d like to be remembered. I really loved generating money for the charities I was involved in, I loved fighting the good fight, having a good time at the cons, going the extra mile for fans, but in some ways all that seems invalidated.

With the Chaos! Bankruptcy, a lot of freelancers, companies; vendors, suppliers and fans got hurt and hold me responsible. So to them, I am lower than low. It is as if the bankruptcy stole away that possibility and erased the good we did. I have no choice but to accept that.

I apologize for my shortcomings as a businessman and I apologize to everyone for the mess the bankruptcy caused. If I could have done this differently, and caused each person involved less pain, struggle and hardship, I would have.



For discussion, visit the Hey Buddy message boards. For more on Brian Pulido, check out http://www.crossgen.com/ and the http://www.cyberfiends.net/ websites.